Blackmores ISO Consultancy Service: The creators of isology®

For those in the ISO Space, you may be very familiar with the term ‘Certification’ in relation to ISO Standards. However, for certain ISO Standards there is a different type of terminology you need to be aware of.

The demand for a more unified and structured approach to reduce carbon emissions has resulted in a few carbon related ISO Standards to be published over the last few years. Standards such as ISO 14064 (Carbon Verification) and ISO 14068 (Climate Change Management) use the term ‘Verification’ rather than ‘Certification’.

So, what’s the difference between the two?

Join Mel in this weeks’ episode as she explains the key differences between the terms ‘Certification’ and ‘Verification’ in relation to ISO Standards.

You’ll learn

• What is Certification?
• What is Verification?
• What is the difference between certification and verification?
• What’s involved with Verification?
• Is there a demand for Verification in the UK and overseas?

Resources

• The ISO Show
• Carbonology

In this episode, we talk about:

[00:25] Episode summary – Listeners familiar with the world of ISO will know of the term ‘Certification’, however the release of new Carbon related Standards such as ISO 14064 and ISO 14068 has brought in a new term: ‘Verification’

This episode, we’ll explain the difference between the two. If you’d like to learn more about ISO 14064 and ISO 14068, check out episode 72 and episode 158.

[02:00] What is Certification? – Quiet simply, Certification is for businesses who wish to certify an ISO Management system – so a company wishing to implement a Quality Management system to ISO 9001, would get the ISO System certified by an accredited Certification Body.

[02:25] What is Verification? – Verification is the confirmation of a claim, through the provision of objective evidence, that specified requirements have been fulfilled.  Therefore ISO 14064 the carbon footprint verification standard is a standard that is verified not certified.

The ‘claim’ or ‘statement’ is typically the QES ‘Qualifying Explanatory Statement’.  If you’d like to find out more about this, then checkout Episodes 91 to 97, where David Algar, Principal Carbonologist at Carbonology explains in more detail.

[03:35] Setting the record straight – Some organisations (and even Certification Bodies!) have been stating they have been certified to PAS 2060 or ISO 14064 – which is technically incorrect.

 As a certificate is not issued and they’re not certified.

[04:30] Think of Verification as an MOT: A simple analogy for Verification is a car MOT. This is an annual check to verify that a claim is correct, much like an MOT, someone must inspect evidence and check that everything is as claimed – not unlike checking under a car bonnet and checking tires to see if everything is in working order.

[05:20] What is the difference between accreditation for certification and verification bodies? –  For ISO Certification, certification bodies must adhere to ISO 17021:2015. This standard basically provides a requirements for bodies providing audit and certification of management systems, and applies to CB’s like BSI or NQA.

There are many others here in the UK, simply visit the UKAS website to find a list of accredited CB’s. In other countries, simply go to your national accreditation body website to find a full list.

[06:40] Accreditation for Verification Bodies – Verification Bodies need to adhere to ISO 17029, which was a Standard first published in 2019. That standards title is: Conformity assessment, general principles and requirements for validation and verification bodies.

Both Standards provide structure and governance to basically ensure that standards are either certified or verified to a level playing field.

[07:20] Watch out for the cowboys – Unfortunately, there are some fake third party so-called certification and verification bodies that offer certification and verification.

They do not adhere to either ISO 17025 or ISO 17029, and instead play by their own rules. Which results in utterly worthless (and very expensive) ‘certificates’ that won’t hold up under scrutiny in tendering applications. So please ensure you use an Accredited Certification or Verification Body!

[07:48] What are the differences between Certification and Verification? Certification in more detail – Certification of an ISO Management System means of providing assurance that the organisation has implemented a system, so they’ve got the policies, procedures and controls in place against the relevant activities for their products and services to be delivered.

Certification for management system provides that independence, that impartiality that the company is actually doing what they say that they’re doing, and that it’s effectively implemented.

If you want to get certified, you need to undertake an Assessment. Typically this is done in two parts – A Stage 1 Assessment is a document review and Stage 2 Assessment is the evidence to prove that the companies following its policies and procedures.

[09:35] What are the differences between Certification and Verification? Verification in more detail – There are actually 2 definitions for Verification:

1: The process for evaluating a statement of historical data and information to determine the statement is materially correct and conforms to criteria in 3.6.10.

2: It’s a confirmation of a claim through a provision of objective evidence that specified requirements have been fulfilled. There are a couple of notes with this one, including:

• Verification is considered to be a process for evaluating a claim based on historical data and information to determine whether the claim is materially correct and conforms with specified requirements.
• Verification is applied to claims regarding events that have already occurred are results that have already been obtained, confirmation of truthfulness.

[11:30] Avoiding Greenwashing – Now more than ever is the time to actually have systems in place to be able to verify that claims are factually correct.

A key thing to note with both Verification definitions is that they state you can only make a claim for a certain period – again, much like an MOT.

[12:55] What’s involved with Verification? – There are a few ways to gather the historical data needed for verifiers, here’s a few:

• Observation;
• Inquiry;
• Analytical testing;
• Confirmation;
• Recalculation;
• Examination;
• Retracing;
• Control testing;
• Estimate testing;
• Cross-checking;
• Reconciliation

From those terms alone, you can tell that this is a much more analytical approach than compared with Certification.

[14:30] What’s the current status of Verification in the UK and overseas (as of 2024) – In addition to being the Managing Director of Blackmores, Mel is also CEO of Carbonology – a sister company dedicated to Carbon Standards.

Across both companies, we’re seeing a lot of interest in Sustainability Standards such as ISO 14001 and ISO 50001.

At this current time, there is not so much of a demand for Verification and as such, there’s not a demand for third-party verification at this stage. There is however, a demand for an impartial second-party Verification to back up an organisations’ claims.

[16:15] Need any help with ISO 14064 or ISO 14068? – Get in contact with Carbonology and speak to our expert Carbonologists.  

If you’d like assistance with other ISO Standards, get in contact with Blackmores and we’ll be happy to help 😊

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One of the most crucial steps to gaining your ISO certification is the completion of a Stage 1 and Stage 2 assessment, conducted by an accredited Certification Body. A quick reminder – your certification doesn’t mean much if you haven’t received certification from an accredited Certification Body – so make sure you do your research!

Businesses going through their final Assessments to gain ISO certification may see any decisions made by Certification Body Assessors as infallible, however there’s still a very human aspect which can lead to some common pitfalls.

Last week we dived into the requirements of ISO 17021 – the Conformity Assessment Standard designed for Certification Bodies, and more specifically the requirements in relation to you as a client.

In this weeks’ episode, Steve Mason joins Mel once again to share some issues raised by Blackmores’ clients against Certification Bodies, and explains the related rules in ISO 17021 which Certification Bodies should abide by.  

You’ll learn

• What is ISO 17021?
• Key issues raised by Blackmores’ clients in relation to Certification Bodies
• Related ISO 17021 requirements

Resources

• isologyhub
• ISO 17021

In this episode, we talk about:

[00:24] What is ISO 17021? It’s the Conformity Assessment Standard designed for Certification Bodies. In effect, it acts as a service level agreement. These are the rules that these certification bodies need to comply with if they are accredited by an accreditation body like UKAS. Listen to the previous episode to learn more.

[01:10] What are we focusing on in this episode? There have been some issues raised by some of our clients time and time again over the last 6 – 8 months.  We want to break some of these issues down, and help listeners to understand what are the actual rules around these areas in relation to ISO 17021.

[01:40] Issue #1: Cancellations – Sometimes a cancellation is unavoidable, however there are still rules that any Certification Body needs to follow – most importantly they should notify the client.

Steve shares his experience with an Assessor who was due to show up on the 5^th September 2023, and never turned up! it turned out that whilst the date was in the previous report, it had been removed from his diary, but it hadn’t then been put into somebody else’s diary, and because it hadn’t been put into somebody else’s diary, there was no flag to anybody to let the client know that the visits should take place. Now that visit had to be pushed back into January next year, which is the only time we can make it.

[02:50] Balancing Expectations –  There’s an expectation from certification bodies that clients should not cancel a month or less than a month before they visit. Steve recommends that should apply to certification bodies cancelling for clients too.

There are many considerations to Certification Body visits, including:- cost, scheduling the right people to be present, setting time aside for the audit ect.

[04:30] One-sided penalties – Penalties seem to be very one-sided. For example: if the client cancelled two or three weeks beforehand because they had personal circumstances which meant that they couldn’t attend, they would be penalised and would have to pay in full for that visit. Yet the certification body can not show up on a day, and there’s no compensation whatsoever.

[05:10] This is not the norm for Certification Bodies – A reminder that the issues were raising are not the norm for Certification Bodies – however we are seeing an increase of complaints raised by our clients. This may have been exacerbated due to the recent shortage of Assessors.

[05:50] Issue #2: Planning Audits – Another issue that’s been cropping up is about planning audits – not just surveillance audits, but also stage 1 and stage 2 Assessments.

In regards to ISO 17021, Certification Bodies should be providing an Stage 1 Audit plan to the client to detail what will happen during the visit.

That plan is often not happening, or there’s a generic plan that gets sent out by the certification body which bears no relevance to what the assessor ends up doing. So that’s as useful as a chocolate teapot.

It should be sent a month ahead of the visit, not 2 -3 days before the visit takes place. Companies need time to organise the right people and Certification Bodies need to be considerate of that fact.

[07:35] Steve’s experience with a poor Audit plan from a Certification Body – Steve had an occasion where he had to write a plan on behalf of the Certification Body Assessor for the client as they’d neglected to even send one!

Steve used to be an Assessor, so is familiar with how these plans should be structured. The designated Assessor ended up using his plan – but this should not have been the case.

[07:58] Poor planning –  There have been instances where the planning has been so poor that they send the wrong Assessor to a client site. We’ve had experiences where an ISO 27001 Audit was due to take place and the Assessor turned up expecting to Audit against ISO 9001.

[08:50] What should Certification Bodies be providing following a Stage 1 Assessment visit? –  After your Stage 1, you should have another plan come out of that stage, after what’s known as the Programme Management Day.  The reason for that is because the assessor sometimes needs to go away, look at what they’ve written up, and take into account what they’ve heard from the client, and put a reasonable plan in place.

The assessor should then sit down with the client to discuss the plan and what sites are going to be visited during the Stage 2 Assessment.

[09:30] Using the right language –  Often we see plans come out with language in the plans that is alright for certification body, but the client has no idea what the assessor is going on about. Steve always used to sit down with his clients and say right, ‘what language do you want me to use?’ And then would use their language and would also put the clause from the related standard next to that and say ‘that’s the bit I’m going to audit’. You’re writing the plan for the customer, not for yourself.

It also acts as assurance for a potential replacement Assessor if the first Assessor is off sick and can’t make the next visit.

[11:33] What does ISO 17021 say? –  In clause 9, ISO 17021 states that: the certification should ensure that the audit plan is established prior to each audit identified in the audit programme to provide the basis for agreement regarding the conduct and scheduling of the audit activities.

If they fail to put a plan in place, they are not meeting a requirement.

ISO 17021 also says that if you’ve got an organisation that’s got different sites, then the plan should take into account the different sites and whether the visit is going to be on site off site – as remote audits have become more common place post-pandemic.

[12:35] Steve’s experience with a flimsy plan provided by a Certification Body –  ‘I came across an audit plan which was just a list of all the requirements a standard. It was across 5 days. But there was no indication as to which day those requirements were going to be assessed. There’s no indication as to how long each of those requirements are going to be assessed? So what could the client do to prepare for that?’

Steve did say to client send it back and get a proper plan, but they have absolutely no joy with the certification body.

[13:50] Issue #3: Unnecessary charges –  Mel recounts a recent incident where a Certification Body cancelled 2 site visits, and due to the long delay between rebooking, the client had moved office. However, they only relocated a few doors down in one instance and across the road in another. The client then received a quote for an extension to scope – amounting to 3 extra days due to the address change!

Mel checked ISO 17021 and confirmed that an extension to scope is only applicable if changing what you’re doing or you’re adding a new location to the scope – however if you’re using the exact same scope and are only moving your business from one location to the next – it is not an extension to scope, it’s just a change of address.

Steve recounts a similar instance where a client was charged £160 for the address to be changed on their certificate! Which is a ridiculous and unnecessary admin fee which only serves to upset the client.

[17:50] Issue #4: No disclosure of the appeals process –  if client a company isn’t happy with their nonconformities, there is an appeals process, which is a requirement of ISO 17021.

Steve highlights an incident where an Assessor told a client ‘don’t bother with the appeals process because it’ll only delay the delivery your certificate’ – Which was highly unprofessional of that particular Assessor to say.

The appeals process there is there to help clients if they disagree with their assessor, and allow them to go to a sort of third party that’s within the certification body and say, look, I don’t agree with this. Can you explain why it’s a nonconformity?

Top tip: If you do get a non-conformity that you’re confused about – Ask the Assessor to show you where in the standard it requires you to do that. If an assessor cannot show you that, then it is not a nonconformity.

[20:30] The complaints process –  The complaints process really is not about appealing against a nonconformity, but complaining against perhaps not getting your plans in your reports and all that sort of thing.

[21:20] These issues are not the norm – don’t be put off ISO certification! –  While we have noticed an increase in complaints in the last year, we also want to highlight that these have mostly been for 1 or 2 select Certification Bodies.

On the whole, Certification Bodies provide a wonderful service to their clients. We just wanted to bring their code of practice to your attention, that you can check ISO 17021 to verify that the Certification Body is being fair to you and fulfilling their own requirements in relation to customer service.

[23:35] Receiving reports –  Lastly a reminder that reports to clients following visits should not take months to get to them. Clients should expect reports from Assessors in 2 – 3 days – not months!

We’d love to hear your views and comments about the ISO Show, here’s how:

• Share the ISO Show on Twitter or Linkedin
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If you are going for certification, or currently manage a certified ISO Management System, then you should also be aware of ISO 17021 ahead of any Assessments or Surveillance audits conducted by an accredited Certification Body.

ISO 17021 sets out requirements for bodies providing audit and certification of management systems. It ensures that Certification Bodies provide a reliable assessment of compliance with the applicable requirements, carried out by a competent impartial audit team, to achieve a consistent result for all clients.

So, why should you be aware of this Standard in particular? ISO 17021 also establishes what you as a client should expect from your Certification Body.

Steve Mason, Managing Consultant at Blackmores, joins Mel to discuss what ISO 17021 is, why you should be aware of it and the requirements related to expected service delivery from Certification Bodies.

You’ll learn

• What is ISO 17021
• The difference between accredited and non-accredited certification bodies
• A brief overview of the Standard and client related requirements

Resources

• isologyhub
• International Accreditation Forum
• ISO 17021

In this episode, we talk about:

[01:40] Why are we talking about ISO 17021 now? In our internal Team Meetings, Certification Bodies are an established talking point. Highlighting the good and the bad, but in recent months it’s been more on the negative side. Steve had highlighted ISO 17021 as the Standard to look at in regard to expected service delivery requirements from Certification Bodies – so here we are!

[03:00] What is ISO 17021? The reason for the standard is that it ensures that all certification bodies are delivering the same level of service to all customers. Certification Bodies don’t need to be certified to other standards such as ISO 9001, as ISO 17021 was specifically designed for the purpose of delivering certifications.

It’s also the standard where you can find out what’s expected of Certification Bodies – like a Terms and Conditions or service level agreement.

[05:00] The difference between accredited and non-accredited Certification Bodies – Go back and watch episode 19 to learn more.

[06:10] Why is it important that the Certification Body is accredited? –  Accreditation proves that the Certification Body is being checked by another body. Accreditation is also recognised worldwide – it’s trusted as a gold standard of performance. There are many different accreditation bodies around the world, here in the UK it’s UKAS, but there are others such as ANAB in the US. Check out the International Accreditation Forum website to confirm the accreditation body for your country.

[08:10] Ultimately, a Certification Body can’t offer accredited certification services unless they’ve actually been assessed by the applicable accreditation body to ISO 17021, and they need to do that on an ongoing basis like any other certification.

They also may not be accredited to deliver every standard they offer – so make sure you verify with the certification body that they are in fact accredited to ISO 9001, ISO 27001 ect.

[09:15] A brief overview of what’s included in ISO 17021 – A lot of the clauses before this are really about the management of certification body, but when it comes to clause 9, this is where the customer becomes a lot more involved in the requirements. It covers topics such as planning audits, conducting audits, certification decision making, maintaining certification, the appeals process, the complaints process and then keeping client records.

Clause 9 in particular is where you, as a client, should focus.

[11:00] What core principles are described in ISO 17021? – Impartiality, competence, responsibility, openness, confidentiality, responsiveness to complaints, risk based approach and legal responsibilities.

[12:20] What personal behaviors should you expect from your assessor? – In Steve’s experience, he’s seen more and more assessors not living up to the requirements of ISO 17021. This could be for a number of reasons, i.e. they could have an uncooperative client, they may not have had adequate training, perhaps there’s a break down between clients and client managers. Either way, these are a few of the qualities that Assessors should embody: ethical, fair, truthful, sincere, honest, discrete and open-minded.

[14:00] A lack of open mindedness –  Steve had encountered an Assessor that stated ‘This must be wrong because I’ve never seen it done that way’ – which is not open minded in the least. This resulted in a non-conformity which should have never been raised.

ISO 17021, clause 9.4.5 states that any non-conformity raised shall be recorded against a specific requirement in the Standard being audited. Assessors need to take heed not to assess to their preference.

[15:15] Top Tip –  If you get asked a question, then give an answer and they raise that as a non-conformity that you’re unsure as to why it’s being raised – it’s always worth asking the Assessor to show you where in the standard they’re raising the non-conformity against.

It’s a case of clarifying the question and verifying what they’re raising a non-conformity against, and if there’s a justification for it. If there is, then great, they’re doing a great job! If not, it may be the Assessor’s personal bias, and there’s a chance you can get that non-conformity down to an opportunity for improvement.

[17:05] Other expected traits for Assessors to be aware of –  Collaborative: It should be a partnership between the client and Assessor – they want what’s best for you.

Tenacious: This can sometimes be taken too far. For example, if your Assessor it still assessing past 5pm, tell them to go home. If they need more time, then it’s up to the certification body to work that one out.

Other basic traits include: Observational, being perceptive and versatile.

We’d love to hear your views and comments about the ISO Show, here’s how:

• Share the ISO Show on Twitter or Linkedin
• Leave an honest review on iTunes or Soundcloud. Your ratings and reviews really help and we read each one.

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Implementing an ISO can seem like a daunting task at first – There’s a lot to consider! Most importantly, are you implementing the Standard for the whole business – just one location? For just one Service?

In today’s podcast – I’m going to share with you ‘how to establish the scope of your ISO System’ as it’s the number one consideration when you start planning your ISO Project. This will also help to determine timescales, costs and resources needed for your ISO Project.

What is the ‘Scope’?…

The scope of the EMS will clarify the organisational and physical boundaries to which your activities applies, particularly if the company is part of a larger organisation. 

Your organisation has the freedom and flexibility to define these boundaries. Your company may choose to only include a specific activity, location, product, or service delivery. 

How to calculate the scope…

Most organisation’s, particularly if they are an SME (Small and medium enterprises with less than 250 employees) will include all aspects of their business activities within the scope of their EMS, and also their scope of certification to ISO 14001.

Larger organisations, or SME’s across multiple locations (including international) may want to carefully consider the scope of certification as there will be additional costs and time factors to take into consideration. 

Why defining the scope is so Important…

Once your scope has been defined within your EMS, that this is what is included in ‘black and white’ on your certificate. Therefore, if one of the reasons to achieve certification is to impress your stakeholders with your environmental credentials, then being fully inclusive and transparent with a wider scope covering all your company activities, services and locations will be far more credible then a restricted scope.

Consider what will have the biggest impact – where you can make the biggest difference.

Further Resources:

We have a super useful checklist on how to plan, create, launch and implement your ISO Project so that you can successfully achieve certification. Download your FREE ISO Standards blueprint here.

Pssst!… Whilst your there, you may also want to check out our membership which includes all the tutorials, check sheets, templates and training to implement ISO Standards. As a member of the isologyhub we give you all the support that you need to make your ISO Project a reality and success.

In this episode I will cover:

[01.55] – What is the Scope?

[03.45] – How to establish your scope

[05.40] – Why defining the scope is so Important

[06.20] – Expanding the scope of your certification

[07.40] – Further considerations

We’d love to hear your views and comments about the ISO Show, here’s how:

• Share the ISO Show on Twitter or Linkedin
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So this is for our ISO Show listeners that are already certified to ISO Standards, in some cases – not that often, some companies can get really fed up or frustrated with their certification body provider.

Now on the whole, accredited CB’s are great – however over the last 14 years we’ve come across the good, the bad and the ugly too!

So, this podcast is for those companies that maybe looking to switch, so we’ll cover…….

Why companies decide to change CB’s

• Can’t get hold of anyone to help them – inform them of change in business and the CB is not adaptable.

• Frustrated with lack of organisation – not keeping client informed, assessor showing up to audit the wrong standard.

• Their CB is not listening to them

• Not happy with the assessor – No really a hard reason – Just request a different Assessor

• Lack of value – assessor shows up later and leaves at 2.00pm and you don’t get the report for another 2 -3 weeks after chasing.

Why switch?

Because you can – you have a choice

• You are the customer – if you raise your concerns and are not being heard, go to another CB that will look after your every need.
• You may get a more competitive service and costs – example clients grown through acquisition
• You are expanding internationally – need a CB with an international presence

How to switch

1. Here in the UK – If you are certified by a UKAS accredited certification body the switch is free of charge to another UKAS accredited CB.
2. Establish your scope of certification and requirements – sites, services, standards.
3. Review your timings – should it be before or after your next surveillance visit?
4. Get three quotes from accredited Certification bodies – explain you’d like a quote for the period of certification including the recertification costs.
5. Provide your requirements – also explain why you are looking to change CB’s as you want assurance that they will be able to provide you with the service you need.

• Consider –
  • Costs
  • number of assessors for your standards on the payrole,
  • Continuity of assessors
  • Location of assessors and your locations
  • Support
  • Key Account Manager / customer services
  • Experience/reputation in your sector / standards
  • Any value adds i.e. webinars, whitepapers, events.

How we can help? – Free service to send an RFQ to CB’s so you can get comparative quotes. We don’t have an exclusive relationship with any 1 Certification Body, but we can help you gain a quote as a free service we offer. If you need help getting a quote, contact us!

Look out for our directory of recommended CB’s in 2021.

We’d love to hear your views and comments about the ISO Show, here’s how:Share the ISO Show on twitter or Linkedin

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Certification is the last step on your journey to gaining an ISO. Join Mel as she discusses the certification options available and what you need to consider when using a third party Certification Body.

On this week’s episode Mel covers the following:-

• Why choose certification?
• Why not self-certify?
• Make sure they’re UKAS accredited
• Expertise in your sector – SIC codes are issues to assign an assessor to an industry
• Geographical location – Are they local or being flown in from another country due to UK resource issues?
• Availability to fit in with your timescales
• Responsiveness and flexibility – You can ask to change dates if needed
• Make use of other value added i.e. Webinars, e-learning and events
• Access to support
• Flexibility in terms of additional standards (multiple badge assessors)
• Willingness to with you – is the price / number of days negotiable?
• Do they use sub-contractors or their own employees?

Blackmores offers a Free of Charge request for quote service. We send this out to 3 certification body’s and you simply pick which one best fits you. If would like to make use of this service, feel free to contact us.

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Blackmores congratulates uComply, being recommended for certification to ISO9001:2015 by ISOQAR with no non-conformities or opportunities for improvement. This in addition to the achievement of ISO 27001 in November.

Both standards being internationally recognised helping the company to manage and protect the confidentiality, integrity and availability of both customer and company information; complimented by a business ethos of customer focus and continual improvement supported by the commitment of top management to maintain effective systems that ensure customers receive consistent, good quality services and products.

If you would like to learn more about what Blackmores can offer your business – contact us today!

Premier Physical Healthcare is a subsidiary of Totally PLC and a leading provider of a wide range of healthcare services which include physiotherapy, podiatry and mobility assessments

Blackmores congratulate Premier Physical Healthcare’s retained certification at their first Continuing Assessment visit to ISO27001:2013 Information Security with no non-conformities.

Internationally recognized ISO/IEC 27001 is an excellent framework which helps organizations manage and protect their information assets so that they remain secure in confidentiality, integrity and availability. It helps you to continually review and refine the way you do this, not only for today, but also for the future. That’s how ISO/IEC 27001 protects your business, your reputation and adds value.

Certification body: BSI